Like all youngsters, you want to be a hero.
You love your job, you want to look good, you want people to like you.
When I was a young copywriter at BMP, I was the same.
I didn’t want to be a prima donna.
The account men would come to me with a tough brief.
They’d say, “Everyone has tried to crack this and they can’t.
Everything has bombed out in research and we’re now out of time.
If we don’t get something out fast we’re going to lose the account.”
I’d say, “Well I can write something that’ll solve the research problems.
It won’t be great but, if it’ll help the agency, I’ll do it.”
They said, “You’re a star.”
So, lots of times, I wrote something, shot it, edited it, ran it.
We saved the account, everyone was happy.
So I thought.
Usually about 6 months later, John Webster would be reviewing the recent work the agency had done.
He’d be playing the commercials and he’d stop at one I’d done.
He’d say, “That’s not very good, who did that?”
Someone would say, “Dave Trott.”
John would grunt, as if he was thinking, “That’s disappointing. It’s not as good as the rest of the department’s work.”
I’d wait for the account man to speak up and tell him that the ad I did helped save the account, and made money for the agency.
Nothing.
Why would the account man associate himself with work John didn’t like?
This happened to me a few times.
I was a sucker for any account man who asked for help.
Then they always forgot about it immediately it was done.
Then John would be disappointed in a lot of my output.
Eventually I learned.
You work only for your boss, or it gets political.
My boss was the creative director.
If he asked me to do average ads to hold the account, then I knew he’d remember.
So when the account man asked me to help out, I’d say, “Sure, tell John Webster the problem. And, if he asks me to do it, I’ll get right on it.”
The account men didn’t like that.
They wanted an easy life.
If they asked John, he’d give them a hard time.
He’d want to know why they couldn’t sell the good ads.
There’d be a big row.
The account man would have to choose between pissing off John, or pissing off his client.
In which case, he’d have to get his boss involved: Martin Boase.
Which made the account man look like he couldn’t handle his accounts.
No wonder he wanted to bypass John.
As long as the client is happy, the account man’s done his job.
If the creative product isn’t great, well take that up with the creative department.
As a youngster you need to get burned a few times like that before you learn the rules.
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wow, that’s exactly what happened to me.
in the beginning I was doing my stuff and helping other newbies (usually on account’s request). I was sure I’m doing what I was suppose to do and that boss will notice that.
but… as a result newbies have more complete projects so they were regarded as fast and thorough and I was sloppy and slow.
I almost got fired. I saved myself from literary seating my CD in front of my comp. showing him that ideas, headlines and bodycopies were typed on my computer.
I learned my lesson.
Amazing story. Thank you.
OK, I’ve only just noticed… because it never said ‘your comment has been posted’ (and because those CAPTCHA words are so hard to read) I thought comment posting had failed and did it again. And again.
Haha, sorry.
You’re right, the Captcha words are crap.
Even I can’t read them.
Not all account men want an easy life. A great many in my experience want the same thing the “creatives” want. Just as Roger Mavity (I think) once suggested that there should be an account man category at D&AD, maybe there should be an account man blog.
Story from the distant fog:
In the late sixties at CDP, I was an account man. Presented ad, written by one of the great writers, to client. Client had some legitimate comments, writer rewrote. Client approves second version with proviso to include something from version 1 that is missing in version 2, again a reasonable request. It’s Friday, ad due at publication, no sign of writer. Account man marries the two versions after clearing said act with CD.
Monday morning, enter apoplectic writer threatening firing at the very least. But no, besides said writer forgot he was leaving to establish WRG in London and himself had already resigned.
Clients do pay the salaries of both “creatives” and “suits.”
http://ex-blank-page.blogspot.com/2009/02/in-reply-to-daves-great-posts-3.html
Dear Dave
Those suits are crafty! You’ve got to admire their initiative though, even if it came at your expense.
I remember a screw up occurring when I was junior.
I mistakenly owned up first expecting the team I was with to fall in line (we win as a team we lose as a team). Boy did I learn!
Account handlers are worth their weight in gold when they are truly batting for your side though. Guess they walk a difficult tightrope between the client and the agency they work for, er, what am I saying?!
Whenever I told my old boss something was shit because of what the account man asked me to do, he would say, ‘Ben, he can’t fire you. I can.’
I soon learned.
Hi Ciaran.
’said writer’ didn’t have the initials TB did he?
If he did you were lucky to get away without a flowerpot on the head.
The acronym:
“Completely Automated Public Turing test to tell Computers and Humans Apart.”
is about as dodgy as the system,
Surely there must be a better way to tell computers and humans apart? Computer’s can’t reaon like humans; how about a riddle?
Might be easier than the CAPTCHA words(!)
Or what about a phonetic spelling of a word, which the human then turns into a proper word. Like ‘comm-pooh-tah’, any ideas?
Dave,
While you may not go back as far as I do, it seems your memory does. I still remember him as one of the greats.
Ciaran
Two phrases spring to mind;
“Never do quick shit because people will forget it was quick” - John Hegarty (I think)
and
“There’s never enough time to do it properly, but always enough time to do it again.” - Bill Thompson (I believe)
Ciaran,
The story I heard about ’said writer’ at CDP was that when an account man told him he’d agreed with the client to a change in the copy, ’said writer’ knocked him out.
Later on ’said writer’ felt a pang of conscience and went to apologise.
The account man accepted the apology but said the client had been right about the change.
So ’said writer’ knocked him out again.
Wasn’t you Ciaran was it?
Dave,
I’m afraid not. We actually got along quite well. Maybe because we shared a liking for some obscure poets.
Only one threat of violence while at CDP and that also involved a writer, this one threatened to kill me. This time the initials were CS. The reason had nothing to do with copy.
Ciaran
I think he threatened to kill a lot of people Ciaran.
But, from what I’ve heard, he was only ever really violent with his brother.
Yo Dave, thanks.
I grew up in advertising in the mid 80s and I can relate to a lot of what you said.
Just wonder - have times changed?
These days, most CEOs, especially of holding-company agencies, care more about the numbers than the quality of work.
Dave Droga, apparently, only answered to the regional MD when he was in Asia.
Rumour has it that the agency gained an amazing reputation but lost money.
Why? Because clients didn’t much like the bold work the agency was doing.
Even though some of them were v good.
Your poet comment’s interesting.
Scamp asked yesterday if it were possible to tell the diff between a scowler (Art D) and a blogger (writer).
Most people would associate a person with an anthology of poems as a writer.
It’s a bit like freelancing, Dave.
Many agencies get freelancers in to do work that the ‘regulars’ won’t want to do.
So even if the freelancers manage to appease the client, they get no respect from the CD and his sidekicks.
“It’s amazing how much more can get done when no one fights over the credit,” goes a famous saying.
So, what if the creative does the work as a favour to the suit.
But in the Bush-CIA tradition, disavow all association with that brief.
Everyone gets their cake.
Sneaky?
Dumb?
Predatory thinking?
dave, robin, riki
it’s james, the shanghai guy!
thanks so much for all your advice. i knew i’d get a well thought out answer from the readership of a blog such as this. i didn’t reply as i was at my graduation ceremony all day yesterday.
i was half expecting to get a barrage of people telling me i’m throwing my career away if i leave england, let alone not go to london.
even so, i just want to produce great work that ultimately wins me the respect of my peers. so i’ll always be keeping that in mind.
but it pleases me to hear so many people telling me to go for it. i’ll be contacting the names i’ve been given right away.
a great post also, something i can truly relate to. i’ve been in the same situation and have even had the account guys tweak my copy at the last minute, i learnt quickly you have to stand your ground with account handlers.
Sorry James.
Too many times people ask for things and don’t seem serious.
In the past, it was bringing back D&AD copies so they knew what a certain ad looked like.
Anyway, just remembered:
gwenyip - it’s a reverse, actually:
She’s from Hogkong (musn’t call ‘em Hongkies as that’s rude) but made it to London.
She has a blog and has been to Henry, Hegarty, Beattie, and is now at W+K, I think.
Just curious - how much experience have you got?
Pre-recession, gwei lous (white devils) who weren’t very good came to Asia and conned big bucks for themselves.
So there was a lot of resentment.
Of course, if you’re proven like Grubbs and Horrie, it’s a different story.
@ Sam
Perhaps we can coin the term “crapcha”?
Binary Brief exercise:
Dave and anyone else interested, in your opinion what would be the best choice between Market Growth and Brand Share when your client is a worldwide market leader, but the current users are unevenly distributed? This translates into having, let’s say, approximately 70% of the U.S market and a maximum of 10% of the Asian market. The product was never advertised correctly, showing its advantages over the similar products of our client’s competitors.
Anca.
First off, it depends where you’re running the campaign.
In the US (with 70%) it could be MARKET GROWTH
In Asia (with 10%) it would have to be BRAND SHARE.
Next it depends on the product.
If it’s a consumer-durable it will probably be TRIAL, certainly in Asia.
If it’s FMCG it would be Trial in Asia, but could be CURRENT USERS in the US.
Next it depends on advantages.
PRODUCT if you’ve got them, BRAND if you haven’t.
Of course all of this is done totally in the dark, without knowing anything about the product or the market.
Dave, as ever this post makes a great point in the most concise way, thanks.
Ever since I started my career I’ve been kicking around the suits/creative issue. Agencies are unlike any other place I’ve worked in terms of this divide which is both annoying but also perhaps essential.
Anyway, great examples in your story.
Work for your book and work for your boss.
The campaign is supposed to be global (which is not really a natural way of dealing with the business problem, things should be segmented) – this is why I couldn’t decide whether it’s Market Growth or Brand Share. Initially I’ve made the same choices as you did, but that would mean running different campaigns for different markets – which is desirable but not approved by the client (as being a digital project that can be easily advertised via the web).
And it’s rather consumer-durable. Also, we can rely on the advantages of the product.
Ance.
Let’s assume (for argument’s sake) that it’s a mobile phone company.
And let’s assume the brief is to sell more phones (rather than getting people to make more calls).
And you say you have better features than your competitors.
The brief is then BRAND SHARE – TRIAL – PRODUCT.
The brief for a strapline might be ‘We’re the biggest worldwide, because we’re the best worldwide.’
Then you demonstrate your product advantages in the ads.
This builds the brand in Asia, and reinforces the brand in the US.
The product demos then do whichever job you need wherever you need it.
(Again, this is all done in the dark. You need to apply the thinking to your brief.)
dave, do you believe in abandoning your loses?
sometimes i think quite selfishly about the work i am doing.
i can see where something is potentially going to be of benefit to my book. so i put more energy into it.
i believe something i read from an interview with very successful people: ‘ find out the one thing you are good at, and focus all your energy in becoming the best at that.’
i like doing funny stuff. i am respected in the agency i work for for writing/ and have a strong style, even though i am very young.
i can do any brief that comes our way, but funny stuff is my passion.
do you think a team /creative that specialises in funny stuff is viable?
Excellent analogy, makes a lot of sense.
(As always, there’s no real dark landscape for you.)
Thanks a lot, Dave.
Observer.
There’s a very funny writer who used to work for me called Lee Goulding.
He used to get sketches bought by TV, like ‘The Fast Show’.
He’s a good person to ask, he works at Lowe now.
I don’t have his email, but that’s a challenge for you.
thanks dave.
its only well after the watford course i realise why tc rates you so much.
hope you continue to help watford and others for years to come.
im off to find lee.
Oh Dave, I know exactly how it feels. But I think your story is worst than mine.
One day, someone said, you know what, we should do the decoration for our studio, and then bunch of people giving suggestions and so on.
So this guy who started the idea came to me, because I alway mailing people briefs when they didn’t come to the crit. So, I said, well, I have no problem at all, so if you want to do it, then I just want you know you are 100% sure, I don’t want ended up just me doing it.
So, I’ve spoken to the tutors and the course director and got the money problem sorted. Then the guy and many other students who once keen about decorating studio and did not turn up to do the painting for studio.
Since I’ve already given promise to the tutors and people, so i’ve got to buy the coaches, and I also need to spend my own money first and to claim the money back later, that’s the only way we can buy coaches. Then only two girls helped me to go to ikea to buy the coaches, they are little girls and thankfully they helped me to carry some cushions, and I carried two large coaches to the check out.
Later on, I got very angry, because no one is actually involve with this project, I asked people to help me to carry to the coaches to the fifth floor when the coaches is delivered, because there is no big lift in my college. Sadly most people just can’t be bothered to help and they just ignore me.
I just think it’s so unfair, and the guy who started this decoration idea never involved, and doing the decoration is not just for myself, is for everyone who uses the studio. So next time I am not going to make this decision that quick, probably need some serious agreement settled before I do it.
Hi Anca, I am a student, I don’t know anything, but would like to give it a go. lol. Hope you don’t mind.
Firstly, I will pick Brand share, since the company is worldwide, it must have lots of competitors in the market. Then I will go to Current users, because Asian admire western products and brands, also it’s international brand so it must be quite well-known. On the other hand, Asians have a smaller market, and the credit crunch gives the company pressure, so it’s saver to please the bigger target group then the small one, and I guess if the product is interesting, Asian people will discover them anyways. Finally, I will pick product over brand, because I think rational benifits it’s always a saver option to go, people in the tough time will be more realistic than attracted in a emotional way, however, if everyone knows well about this product then I guess will be better to do Brand.
Thanks G,
any idea can prove useful in the long run and it’s always great to hear more opinions. And you’re right about the benefits of choosing Product whenever possible, the most powerful branding is based on product advantages – after all, that’s what we’re supposed to do, sell the product. When the best option is to sell the brand rather than the product, it’s already a warning sign. In my opinion, Brand vs. Product looks like short-term vs. long-term solution. People won’t buy imagery forever, but they will always fall for better quality, better features, better price etc.
_________________________________________
And thinking about your unpleasant experience, what I’ve noticed is that when you want to obtain collective effort all you need to do is make it fun. NEVER let it look like work. That’s human nature, if you seem to be enjoying whatever you’re doing, people will always be willing to get involved. Always remember, hard work is the RIGHT-NOW effort, while the benefits of participating are LATER-ON advantages – human brain hardly ever bothers to think long term. So you have to “attack” with a RIGHT-NOW benefit: FUN.
There used to be an Agency in the Far East.
Very big because it had a huge travel-rekated account.
The wife of the guy who owned it fancied herself a decorator.
Came in, addd parrots and other gaudy things.
Anyone who was heard criticizing the ghastly decor was immediately fired.
How’s that?
Hallo G
You brought up an interesting point.
Anca says 10% of the Asian market in her brief.
And you said “Asians have a smaller market”.
Just wondering and I really have no idea of geography and population.
China and India are huge.
Are they bigger than the US?
I don’t know.
How does 10% of China and India compare to the US market.
Let’s say China and India have a population of 500 million. 10% of that is - 50 million?
Let’s say the US has a population of 50 million.
70% of that is 35 milion.
Maybe it’s not how many percent, but how many percent of what.
Hallo G and anyone else who is interested:
http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats8.htm
says that in 2008,
China has 1,330,044,605
India has 1,147,995,898
USA has 303,824,646
Of course it depends on other factors such as age and being in the right target group.
Comments anyone?
Hi Anca, thanks for you support. I love to help people, especially when it about team work, I was just a bit disappointed after all. I think a right amount of people work together will be fun, rather just leave everything by myself, it’s a good lesson. And, you are absolutely right, I need to think positive, thanks.
Hi Robin,
The thing is, if you see the 10% market in China and India, there are too many lower class people who can’t simply afford foreign goods, High rate of VAT and shipping cost, China and India are unlike Singapore and Japan. Governments are more likely to support at local business rather than foreign goods. Yes, the Asian have the potential in the future market, but we need to consider the economy situation more for this brief.
Robin.
I think your calculation relates to media budget.
besides - it’s less costly to maintain the position than to attack.
strategy-wise, I think Dave was right.
it should be Brand Share - Trial - Product.
Anca.
on this: “Brand vs. Product looks like short-term vs. long-term solution. People won’t buy imagery forever, but they will always fall for better quality, better features, better price etc.”
true. but there are other benefits behind it. example (real one): several years ago, in the battle of Nike-Adidas Nike was so well positioned that whatever Adidas did, Nike’s sale increased more than of Adidas. this gave Nike one huge advantage: Nike got the time to develop another revolutionary feature without jeopardizing his position/sales, Adidas was forced to rethink everything.
but only after Adidas repositioned, new battle could start. not before. so, yes - people do buy imagery forever.
Robin, excellent point. This means even Market Growth could work well – the overall increase in the number of new users will still be huge. Though, long-term speaking, I’d still go for Brand Share first, cover a good percent of the Asian market and build the next campaign on Market Growth. Thanks a lot for the statistics, zooming out and covering all the bases is always helpful.
And G, you also have a point there, generally speaking that’s the healthy judgement, but in this case it’s not so much about investments as it is about participation, so social classes do not play a very important role in this situation — still, good to know for other global campaigns, thanks again.
Riki, great example, but that’s a good way of looking at things if you’re sure you can develop new features. If it’s a product that doesn’t allow great development, time might be of no help and your competitors may well introduce the same great features you already have (and decided not to rely on, but do pure branding instead). So you and your competitors will soon have the same product advantages, they may go for Product instead of Brand and you will still be unable to introduce new features. In this case, I still believe fighting a brand built on imagery with a brand built on product advantages is not a difficult battle. Your point of view is still valid in a context like Nike vs. Adidas. It’s also very important to see how your competitors fight. Thanks a lot for the example, surely very helpful.
Anca.
some posts ago there was an idea of changing category or reinventing it. that’s exactly the situation when you should do it.
example: there was a sidekick in this Nike vs. Adidas battle: Puma (well, one of sidekicks). they positioned their sneakers as urban fashion, not sports.
OK, the rest soon followed and Puma didn’t get the most of it but still - in the beginning they made the right decision.
Reinventing the category doesn’t fit my current brief because there are no categories and when your target audience is EVERYBODY, inventing a category can only limit the possible number of users. Though, again, great suggestion for other situations, you really do know how to make the best of Dave’s posts.
(Dave, since this blog is certainly the best ad school ever invented, I’m sure you could also set up the first virtual ad agency; you’ve already established the worldwide “offices” and their number is constantly increasing — not to mention that they are working not as a network, but as a team. Who could beat that?)
I do like the way everyone’s discussing the problem in binary language,
We don’t have to agree with each other’s solutions, but it certainly gives us a fast, focussed way to debate the strategy.
Something creatives normally wouldn’t have access to.
Yes, this Binary Brief is the new toy — I love the way it obliges us to stay coherent and do the research correctly. I think everybody takes a little bit of whatever the others offer and as Vinny keeps saying, when different cultures intersect, amazing ideas are born. And it’s great that we don’t always agree on one solution – what I hate about misunderstood team building transformed into fake brotherly love is that everybody accepts the louder solution and when a critical situation knocks on the door, suddenly everybody’s a cynic; it sounds like… “United we fall, divided we… fall.” – many options round the bend.
Anca.
of course reinventing doesn’t fit: you’ve got product advantages. I was referring to my example.
if I may just give you one more suggestion. whenever I see “target = everybody”, I think it’s the problem with demographics (ie. our target is from 20-65). so don’t think lifestyle - think mindstyle. which means: different demographic groups have the same attitude towards product, no matter how they live, what they do or their income. find that common attitude.
example: VW Beetle. youth love it cause of its design and some features, eldery (ex-hippies) cause of its heritage. but both demographic groups make the same statement with owning it: that they are cool. so here’s your idea.
of course this is huge simplification but maybe it helps.
or even better example: Barrack Obama.
target: everybody
lifestyle: all kinds.
mindstyle: ‘we have enough of this’ (whatever it means personally)
idea: ‘change’
…and this is where our opinions meet, Riki. And the funny thing is that I got to the same point yesterday, but following a totally different logic:
I started with the basic graph of what “audience = everybody” means. And it is just as simple as this: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_T7OgzrFlAOg/SY2VCjn7zgI/AAAAAAAABXQ/e6fhK32kyAQ/s1600-h/graph+1.png
And this is what we usually call divergence. So basically it means that I should present this product in a way that includes everything that different groups might want to hear.
But then I thought… why do I read this graph as divergence? Just because we are used to read from left to right it doesn’t mean that reading from right to left doesn’t make sense. So what do we have if we flip the perspective? Obviously, convergence. Which is exactly what you say: induce the same positive attitude regardless of what causes it.
hey robin,
yes im familiar with the work of gwen yip, im awaiting her reply now…
im working at mccann erickson in birmingham right now, ive been there nearly 6 months on an extended placement.
so how do you see that in relation to finding work in shanghai?
Thanks James.
Don’t know what your expectations are.
Of course UK advertising is a lot more developed and matured compared to China,
But I think it would be rather ambitious to expect a proper job with a more than decent salary based on 6 months.
Obviously, if you have an amazing book, things might be different.
Remember that cost of living is a lot lower in China.
So your salary’s going to be a lot lower.
Are you prepared for that, financially and mentally?
This is obviously biased, what I’m going to say:
when I got to London, I had already worked for 3 years at a good agency and won awards.
But still I had to go through the whole placement thing and even then, I couldn’t get a job beause of the UK labour laws.
However, back in Asia, people who used to be truck drivers and butchers have landed senior creative roles.
Even without experience, let along a book, they get hefty salaries.
Depends whether you’re trying to get a job in London or Shanghai, I guess.
Back to Shanghai.
You might get a job.
Guess the question is, how long do you want to saty?
And if you want to go back to London, how hard wold that be?
Would anyone be willing to answer a few questions about the advertising industry? I have a class project in which I have to gather some data from people who have worked in the field. I’m from a small town, and we don’t have any agencies near here. If you would be willing, please email me at pape…@yahoo.com. Thanks!